Re: non-traditional males (NOT)

Rob Sernekos (
Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:30:32 -0500

I agree that we as a culture, and as individuals, need to do a lot
understatement) to change the way we raise boys so that the drop out rate,
and suicide rate decrease, while the rate at which boys enter college
increases. I whole heartedly agree that we need to actively pursue means
to decrease the rate at which men, and (increasingly) boys enter the prison
I think it is absolutely imperative that we begin this endeavor by
out every avenue possible to decrease the rates of violent acts committed
by boys (and eventually men). This is the thread that ties it all
together. This is the thread that keeps the drop out rate high, the suicide
rate high, the incarceration rate high, and yes the rate at which girls
(and women) are raped and murdered high (severe understatement).
Do not mistake rage, frustration and anger at the reality of male
as "mean spirited characterizations." We are not doing females or males
any favors by raising them in this culture. While it is crucial for us to
find solutions that bring us together and compel us to act, it is just as
crucial to create arenas for expressing our grief, anger, sadness, and rage
about the tragedies that take place every minute of every day.
This can not be an us against them issue. We are all affected, and
therefore we all have a part in the solution. Time is short.

-Rob Sernekos <>

At 06:17 PM 3/24/98 +0000, you wrote:
>marie De Santis wrote:
>> Tim Flinders writes that he looks to the day that teaching will release
>> boys from boy stereotypes so that " 'becoming a man' will no longer
>> requires that we set aside so much of our humanity".
>Thank you Tim.
>> Tim, becoming a man does not require you set aside your humanity. It
>> heaps reward and profit on boys for setting aside their humanity, a
>> reward and profit that boys and men can CHOOSE to give up any time they
>> want.
>Perhaps you can clarify these rewards heaped on men. The higher
>rate? The much higher suicide rate? Some of us would not call these
>> Boys graduating from high school right away make more money than girls
>> graduating from college.. Boys can give up this money any time they
>> want. Girls, however, are not free to take this collosal money
>> difference from the boys.
>I've posted refutation of this before, including NCES sources on earnings:
>In the remainder, Marie De Santis writes of a number of other issues as
>I maintain that boys are not the evil monsters she would have us believe
and I
>would join with Tim in calling for more efforts to lower the number of boys
>who drop out of school. I would that we not put so many more boys on
>modification drugs. I would that we endeavor to lower boys suicide rate. I
>would that we raise rates of boys going to college.
>The mean spirited characterizations below do nothing constructive for the
>problems of boys. In them, however, she has identified some issues which in
>the interest of gender equity we should seek to correct. In particular, if
>boys are doing less homework we ought to seek ways to correct this. We ought
>to attempt to bring the boy's reading levels up to that of the girls.
>> Teenage boys do an average of three hours work around the home every
>> week. Their teenage sisters do an average of ten hours work around the
>> home every week. Boys are completely free to increase their hours of
>> work any time they want. Girls are not free to abdicate their chores.
>> It is outrageous to say that boys are REQUIRED to take more than their
>> share of the playground, hog the computors, rape girls, make more money
>> than girls, have later curfew, do hugely less hours of housework than
>> girls and use or condone violence to keep this grossly unequal system in
>> place. Boys (and men) are FREE to give up these activities any time they
>> want. But they don't want to because these activities give them so much
>> reward and profit and power.
>> Girls are not free to take back the playground and computors from boys
>> who bully, they can't stop the nearly million rapes of girls every
>> year, nor are they free to take their share of the money back, nor to
>> stop the exploitation of their labor in the home, nor extend their
>> curfew to equal the boys, nor stop the violence of boys.
>> Flinders is also frustrated because there isn't much in the research on
>> the raising of boys!!!!!!!
>> Does Flinders choose to ignore the entire cannon of human history, of
>> psychology, of pedagogy? All of which is based on the study of boys. And
>> now in the smallest sliver of recent time we have a few dozen books on
>> girls and Flinders and so many other "non traditional males"
>> take their outsized share of free time in the world and their hugely
>> outsized share of media access and they cry victim.
>> INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!
>> Marie
>> "marie De Santis" <>
>> >
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